Viktor Sonykin: "In ancient Rome, steam cars were toys for children"

REFERENCE: Viktor Sonkin – Candidate of Philology, Specialist in Western European and Slavic Literature, journalist, translator-synchronist and teacher, translator of modern artistic and documentary English literature. The author of the historical guidebook "here was Rome. Modern walks through the ancient city ", which entered a short list of the" Enlightener-2013 "award. The announcement of the winner and the award ceremony will take place on November 21, 2013.

MP: Like you – a philologist, translator, Slavista – listed in Rome?

– When a person is looking for some book and can not find, you have to write it myself. Books in the genre of the historical guide was many in the XIX century, and the last years there are almost no of them. What is intended for the adult reader, but such that wants to read not dry scientific text, but the story has not appeared lately.

The book was written for several years. I read sources: ancient authors, guidebooks, magazines, worked in libraries. I went to Rome several times. At some point when the book is already more or less, I have for two weeks every day from early morning and until late in the evening I went to my legs on my routes to see how feasible. Among the monuments mentioned in the book, very few people, which I myself did not look.

Of course, I felt a little by impostor, but since the classics still did not write such a book, I considered himself to make it. And what is better for the reader – to decide the reader. On the other hand, it seems to me the approach that I call enlightened amateurism, not bad for literature, which seeks to simultaneously and entertain, and inform. In general, a serious study of the Greek heritage in a new time began with the activities of the British Society, which was called "Society of Amateur".

Members of the Society of Amateurs were charged with the duty, firstly, go to Greece, and secondly, to be digested. It seems to me that this is a good tradition – not in the sense of drunkenness, but in the sense of dilatantism. Do not discharge or accounts or culture process.

In the center of Rome there is a circular crossroads, in the middle – the playground, some grass grows on it, trees and there is such a low stone bed. And this is the remnants of one of the most ancient Roman walls. And nothing, they just stand there, no fenced

MP: culture processing you are generally quite actively engaged.

– Yes, I get great pleasure, for example, from participation in the project with a 20-year history, which is called the "Summer Ecological School", although it has grown far beyond the limits of ecology and natural sciences. This is a company of teachers and schoolchildren who want to learn in the holidays will also learn, and they go somewhere, break the tent camp near the village school and go there for classes. Alexandra Borisenko, my wife, have already read lectures for children three times. It is arranged there that everyone comes on lectures, from high school students to teachers, among whom doctors of sciences can be, and it is necessary to make it interesting to all.

And in the near future November 16, within the framework of the Day of the Enlightener, I will arrange a kind of action in the Pushkin Museum called "Wolf, Your city is the same: the amazing adventures of Roman statues". And I also hope to start a supporting site for a book, where there will be materials that are not included or reappearing, graphic information, cards – what is tied to the topic and is associated with the book, but brings it a little in other dimensions.

MP: As the current Romans perceive the fact that they live on the site of the ancient city? How antiquity is part of their identity, and what part?

– It seems to me that for them it is very organic and incessant, not interrupted with antiquity and to the present day history. Of course, different traditions are superimposed on top of each other: in addition to the ancient, there is a church, reborn, fascist tradition, and they all turn to the ancient heritage so otherwise. Now I started reading in the "Dodo lecture" in DC ZIL Course from four lectures, which is called "Rome after Rome", where I try to say something about how people perceive the ancient heritage through the century. This is really the basis of the entire European culture, and without something to do this, you can not build any modern identity, in Europe at least. And for Romans, as far as I can judge, these are natural scenery in which they grow.

In Rome a lot of live things. Not as in Istanbul, of course, about which Ivanov writes that non-immisodeified Byzantine antiquity can literally lie under the legs in the strangest places. But, for example, in the center of the city there is a circular intersection, in the middle – the playground, some grass grows on it, trees and there is such a low stone bed. And this is the remnants of one of the most ancient Roman walls. And nothing, they just stand there, no fenced. And such in Rome decently.

All that was the center of an ancient city – all of these forum, the Colosseum, and so on, turned out to be abandoned and so called: Disabitato, "uninhabited". It, naturally, gradually destroyed and descended, but it’s nothing. Much worse the case was, on the contrary, in the era of the Renaissance, when everyone began to actively build: because for construction we need material. How many ancient stone went to the firing furnaces or simply recycled to some new projects, not amenable to description

– What an amazing, expanding border you have learned in the process of working on the book?

– Live history associated with monuments often produces a big impression. One of my loved ones is the tomb of Pekary Eurysak near the port-Maggiore area. Apparently, he was a man with humor, all sorts of bread production processes are depicted there.

This is the grave of a simple person, but very monumental – evidence of amazing optimism and social mobility in Rome. By the way, on a recent one dedicated to Pompeiyam, the exhibition in London the most striking me the exhibit was charred cave, and the rest completely untouched. Size with a large plate, with notches on a slice, and on one of them stands a stamp of the manufacturer.

– stamp, it is necessary.

– So what, In Rome, a lot was noticed: bread was intended for distribution, it was distributing, and not sales (they meant them, when they demanded bread and spectacles), and this was subsidized, and where subsidies are there and accounting. A stamps on bricks are generally a whole area of ​​archeology, thanks to which, for example, a Pantheon was transmitted at one time. It says that it was built by Agrippa, but when one French archaeologist at the end of the XIX century began to dig, he saw that the brick was made a hundred years later: the stamp includes the date of manufacture, naturally, not in the format "such a year before our era ", And in the form of an indication, in whose consulate it happens. And it became clear that this is the construction of the times of Adrian, who, as you know, almost never wrote my name on the buildings, and wrote about predecessors. Sometime, Pantheon was really built by Agrippa, but he burned down and nothing left of him, and this, new, was simply built in the same place.

Marcello Theater, built in the first century BC. NS., Until now, used as a residential building: there are apartments on the upper tiers. And it was very interesting to read that the authors of other eras wrote about it, as perceived, say, the British of the Grand Tours and the Mass Tourism started in the Victorian era. Rome because for a long time was considered a place, dangerous in summer, and not in vain: there were swamps around, and malarious mosquitoes were found in the swamps. Then they did not yet know that the fever was spreading mosquitoes, it was simply considered to be "bad air", Mala Aria, and until the swamps were dried, it was really malarious places.

Or recovery history, recreation and resurrection of the Augustov world altar. A hundred years ago, the units of specialists knew about him. And now it is one of the prominent antique monuments of Rome, and he continues to generate scandals until now: the famous American architect Richard Mayer in 2006 built for him a new museum shell in his beloved "white" style of glass and concrete, and it caused discontent with Many Italians. What a change in the participation!

From a little-known marginal monument, which was under many layers of clay and cultural layers under the revival Palazzo standing on the Mars-based field – before extracting and restoring with Mussolini and now a new birth, new museum. Such stories Rome Polon, and it seems to me that it gives him a special charm.

MP: Was there a turning point when these multi-meter cultural layers began to actively dig, or they dug them on a little bit of history?

– No, not all. If we talk very conditionally and conducively, it was so. After the fall of the Western Roman Empire, Rome began to be allowed, its population decreased to orders, and in this case it is not a figure of speech, but a mathematical fact. If in ancient times it was a giant, the world’s largest city with a population of about 1 million people, then at the time of the greatest decline there lived thousand ten. They focused on a plot that conventionally corresponds to Marsh field in the teibra. And all that was the center of the ancient city – all of these forum, the Colosseum, and so on, turned out to be abandoned and so called: Disabitato, "uninhabited".

It, naturally, gradually destroyed and descended, but it’s nothing. Much worse the case was, on the contrary, in the era of the Renaissance, when everyone began to actively build: because for construction we need material. How many ancient stone went to the firing furnaces or simply recycled to some new projects, not amenable to description. So, Dad Urban VIII took bronze from the roof of the Pantheon and let her on the gun for the castle of St. Angel.

MP: Now everything that could be found and digging, found and excavated – or something else remains?

– Romans were pioneers in the use of concrete, and their concrete is completely eternal. He possessed the peculiarity that it was only strengthened from the water, so there are many well-preserved underwater monuments in the sea, which are poorly surveyed due to the fact that they are not allowed. Probably outstanding finds who else can expect us are associated with the achievements of underwater archeology. I recently been in France, in the seaside town, which is called Cap d’Agd. There is a museum built for the sake of one Greek statue and dedicated to the achievements of underwater archeology, quite amazing. It is this statue, the so-called Ephebo, there is still a completely luxurious erot, and a lot of other things raised from the bottom of the sea.

I’m not talking about two handsome men from the museum to Regjo-di Calabria, which, unfortunately, are not so famous for the whole world, as they would have to, suspect due to bad marketing stroke. In Italian, they are called simply Bronzi Di Riace, "Bronze Sculptures from Riach", the town where they were found. But, by the way, bronze antique statues reached us very little, almost everything was remembered. And if they were called, for example, "Achilles and Patrole", it would be much cooler. These are luxurious heroic statues of incredible technology, incredible skills made from different metals, up to the fact that they have silver eyelashes and copper lips and nipples. They were also raised in the 1970s from the sea: the diver saw a sticking out of the sand on the bottom of his hand.

Or in Greece near the island of Antikiter, they found an incredible anti-car mechanism dated about II – I century to N. NS., about which is still not fully clear what it represents. This is a very complicated device with gears, divisions, scales. It is clear that some kind of astronomical instrument, but how exactly he worked?

MP: with gears? Wow.

– And that gears, there were no problems with gears. The Greeks and Romans had a steam machine, and hydraulic pumps, and samovar, they were simply toys for children. And to apply them to the industry, no one came to mind: why, when there are "slaves to be silent, and stones to build"?

MP: 2000 years ago, Romans lived in the center of the Encossal Empire. It is clear that about the world they knew quite a lot. But how did they relate to this knowledge, to the world as a geographical space and to their place in it?

– better than it says Vergil in "Aneida", probably, you can not say. In the sixth song, Anna descends to the underground kingdom, where he meets his late father, Ankhis, who shows him a series of future rulers of Rome, that is, actually, the descendants of the Enai right up to the time of Virgin himself. And there is a famous little piece where Ankhis tells him about the civilization mission of Romans. This, in essence, the burden of white, is absolutely the same sublimation, like in kipling and any other imperial nation.

At some historical moment, the Romans were the people of rather wild and their culture to a large extent in bulk adopted in the Greeks. But, in contrast to many other Hellenized peoples, which completely switched to the Greek model, the Romans were modified and enriched very much. A collision of a high, developed Greek civilization with a new, almost barbarian vital energy of another people gave an incredible and very interesting result in the form of both the empire, and a rich culture, cropped by the Romans, although in Greek-based, but very original. So the Romans perceived all this: they are an imperial nation, the rest should obey.

Probably the most famous of Roman travelers – Emperor Adrian. I think his story seems unique for what reason: he was absent in Rome for years. This, in my opinion, talks a lot about the political system: the emperor can not be shown in the capital, and no catastrophe occurs

MP: That is, any cultural differences were interpreted as evidence of the inferiority of these wild people compared to them, beautiful?

– With the exception of the Greeks, whose superiority and seniority in the cultural plan always recognized, although the attitude to the Greeks as to the people, as the political units of the Romans were skeptical. But In general, the Romans of antiquity respected any. If something famous for the rich tradition, they could perplex about this, but at the same time be this awesome. In particular, it is known that the Jewish cults at some point became very popular in Rome and what, say, Saturday was observed, apparently, not only the Roman Jews, but somehow it spread on the Romans themselves. All sorts of temples and monuments Isyid and Osiris in Rome also had a huge amount. In the end, the same Christianity: after all, it could not happen if the Romans were not so susceptible to someone else’s. Moreover, they considered themselves white bone and the lords, they understood imperial culture as a melting boiler.

MP: Empire implies permanent wars, provincial management, therefore – Travel. And where the roads are there and road stories.

– Probably the most famous of Roman travelers – Emperor Adrian. I think his story seems unique for what reason: he was absent in Rome for years. This, in my opinion, talks a lot about the political system: the emperor can not be shown in the capital, and no catastrophe occurs. Adrian was a passionate traveler, who wanted to take first-hand, and he rose to Etna in Sicily, participated in Eleusinsky Mysteries in Greece.

Stories about Roman roads are often pretty tragic: someone runs away on them, someone oversleep the hired killers, how they overtakes, who were not able to escape, and brought his head Anthony. The then wife Anthony punctured his tongue with a hairpin, and then headed his head and hands on the forum and, as he writes, one historian, more people came to look at the dead Cicero, than to once – listen to the living. Or Nero runs away from Rome, hides in the bushes, but still cums with them. It is probably natural: the most dramatic episodes fall into the literature.

But there were pleasant travel, and the Romans were familiar with the joyful feeling from anticipation of adventure. In any case, I would hope to hope for it. And tourism was already then, and many Romans went to Greece, or east, or to Egypt to explore antiquities. Plutarch has stories about how people come to Delphi, for example, it is on a tour. He even complains that the guides (yes, and they were also there) they knew their work badly, they are bored, tourists are not going there and so on; That is, exactly what we can read today at any travel forum.

Some things were still completely different for them, and our concepts would be very surprised. The classic example, which has now become relevant – sexual orientation. For Romans, the question is so simple not stood. Svetoniy when he wants to emphasize the Emperor of the Emperor Claudia, writes that he flammped into women a big lustfulness, to men was altogether indifferent. And the contemporary is clear that it is strange. In antiquity there was no very concept of sexual orientation

MP: And we can make some kind of cultural and social properties regarding these tourists? After all, that culture has grown up to the idea of ​​tourism, there should be many things to happen in it, just so it does not take ..

– About Germany, one of the members of the Imperial Family, when he officially went on a business trip to the East, it was written in the source that in fact it was done to familiarize themselves with antiquity. That is, it was a fully conscious desire, quite understandable for Romans. In general, the idea of ​​antiquity, traditions, ancient artifacts – all this was quite well reflexed.

MP: some kind of modern consciousness.

– Yes and no. From this point of view, but some things were still completely different for them, and our concepts would be very surprised. The classic example, which has now become relevant – sexual orientation. For the Romans (and for the Greeks, whose culture has been arranged differently) the question is so simple. Svetoniy when he wants to emphasize the Emperor of the Emperor Claudia, writes that he flammped into women a big lustfulness, to men was altogether indifferent. And the contemporary is clear that it is strange. In antiquity there was no very concept of sexual orientation.

Here is another example – about the debt and honor, or love and debt, or family relations and debt. Romans, when they told the story about how one of the Goraciye brothers swollen his sister is not even that she mourned the groom’s deceased from his hand, but only for not happy with his death, they told about it with mixed feelings. On the one hand, of course, terrible, and on the other – a noble act, because for him a civil valiant turned out to be above fraternal love. In general, and Taras Bulba, and Pavlik Morozov, and Matteo Falcone would be Roman characters.

MP: Is it possible to expect that there are still books, new projects, lectures?

– Everywhere, where I happen, I try to look at all the ancient, especially Roman. Maybe from something something will once grown, but it is difficult to predict. Or you need to invent the topic yourself and ride aiming, which is also possible and it would be nice if it were logistic feasible. We simply do not pay such money for which it would be possible, for example, for a whole year to write something. I generally very much hope that the book about Rome will rewrite for the English-speaking audience and try to look at it under a little different angle and maybe to go with her to another market. But it is a dream.